In general, the only time I go to prayer services is on Shabbat and that is really only for social reasons. With work keeping me busy during the week, I like to go to synagogue to see my friends, hang out a bit and catch up with everyone.
So the times that I do attend services during the week are few and far between(I could count the times in the past few years on one hand). I just don't believe in prayer and services during the week don't really have the pull of being quasi-social events like they are on shabbat. In any case, I was attending an event last week where there were exactly 10 men. When it came time to pray, it was just assumed that everyone was going to join since everyone was needed to make the minyan. So I got stuck praying mincha* and a little later on maariv*.
I felt really weird because I don't like praying and this was more of a forced prayer. Sure, I could have stood around and not said the words (which I did do to some extent), but I just felt like I would have much rather have been enjoying the event instead. It doesn't bother me if other want to pray, I just don't like being forced into it.
The other thing I was wondering about was whether the other 9 would have wanted me to count as part of their minyan if they knew my feeling about prayer. Do you think they would have wanted to know this info and then wait for another chance to pray later? Do you think they would want someone to be a part of their minyan who doesn't believe the words they are saying are doing anything or have meaning?
I once heard a big time rabbi say that a man can be counted for a minyan as long as he does not categorically deny God. Under those conditions, I guess nobody could really have any issue with me being part of the minyan.
Any thoughts?
Minyan - a quorum of 10 men required to say certain parts of prayer that require such a group
Mincha - afternoon prayers
Maariv - evening prayers.
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Participating in the minyan is the price of entry to enjoying the social event. If you want to enjoy some of the social benefits of Orthodoxy, you're going to get stuck in some situations like this. And don't worry about the feelings of the other 9. You can't read their minds, just like they can't read yours.
> whether the other 9 would have wanted me to count as part of their minyan
Rich, here's what it sounds like (and I apologize it comes across harsh): You were asked to help make a minyan. The total time commitment was, what, maximum 30 minutes assuming there was a break between the two davenings, probably less, and you had a problem with that. Nine men needed you, probably didn't care about your personal issues and the thought of putting 30 minutes or less aside for 9 friends raised issues. What does that say?
> Do you think they would want someone to be a part of their minyan who doesn't believe the words
Well if making a minyan is important they probably would want you to be part of it. After all, if you were to walk away, then anyone needing to say kaddish, or anyone who really felt it was important to hear kedusha and barchu is now stuck. They probably would have had far less of a problem with you than you did with them.
Truth is, regardless of what they would or would not have thought about your opinions, you technically qualify for the minyan, and, under the circumstances, the decent thing to do is to show up. Heck, there's a decent chance that, out of ten, you're not the only one that feels the way you do!
Garnel, not only did you come across as harsh, but you sounded unduly harsh. It was a serious question, and you know perfectly well how eager plenty of frum Jews would be do dump on this guy for his Orthopraxy (yourself included!). They "didn't care about [his] personal issues" while they needed him for a minyan, but they sure wouldn't have given him an aliya or a shidduch if they knew!
Garnel: You're full of it.
Maximum 30 minutes? Are you crazy? Try minimum 40 minutes. Maximum--well over an hour.
David, your argument is specious.
First of all, any frum guy willing to dump on Rich at that time when he wasn't looking to start up a discussion of the issue would be a jerk. So yes, there might have been someone there who would announce "Well I don't want him in the minyan if he's not a believer!" So he's the idiot, not the religion.
Secondly, there is a world of difference between counting someone to minyan and wanting to make a shidduch with them. How can you reasonably compare the two situations?
Finally, OTD, I don't know where you used to daven but clearly those folks had nothing else to do all evening.
>any frum guy willing to dump on Rich at that time when he wasn't looking to start up a discussion of the issue would be a jerk
You're calling yourself a jerk, Garhel. You gladly dumped on me when I was clearly not looking for a discussion. That makes you a ... ?
>OTD, I don't know where you used to daven but clearly those folks had nothing else to do all evening.
What could possibly be more important than having an audience with the King of Kings??????!!!!!??????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!???????
>he's the idiot, not the religion.
How can a religion be an idiot?
>there is a world of difference between counting someone to minyan and wanting to make a shidduch with them.
No, there isn't.
Maybe Rich isn't the only Orthoprax one around here...
> I was clearly not looking for a discussion
You opened a blog. What did you think would happen? Next time talk to a mirror.
> What could possibly be more important than having an audience with the King of Kings?
Learning his Torah.
> How can a religion be an idiot?
Add an IC and it'll make sense.
> No, there isn't.
Yes there is. Making a minyan requires a Jewish man with a pulse. You briefly associate with him and go your separate ways after. You don't have to get to know him, you don't have share thoughts or emotions and you don't have to make a lifetime commitment to him, all things you do with a shidduch. May you be zocheh (that's the yeshivish word for it, right?) one day to realize that.
>You opened a blog...
That doesn't change the fact that by your own definition YOU'RE AN IDIOT!!!
Anon - I know it is part of the price of admission, but that doesn't mean i have to like it and not have any funny feelings.
Garnel - No, it wasn't that much of a commitment, but I would have preferred to enjoy the rest of the event. plus the fact that i just think prayer is a waste of time.
Look, if someone needed help pushing a stalled car, i would help them right away. Yet since I think prayer is worthless it is more annoying to sit through to just help someone out.
Yes, I realize all that but think about it again: for those other 9 guys prayer is something meaningful. You were in a position to help 9 other guys have a meaningful spiritual moment. Why did the thought have to be "But I get nothing out of it so I'd rather be over at the nachos"?
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Holy crap your comment section has been hijacked!!
I also sometimes feel funny in the situation you describe but I go along with it for the others. I just don't want to make an issue out of it. There are many non-religious people who when asked to take part in a minyan will do so, and I don't feel that I should be any more resistant than them.
The only time I do not go along is at the airport or on a plane, when a minyan seriously bothers other people.
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