Thursday, April 23, 2009

Go in the direction of the evidence

Honestly, i don't remember what topic we were discussing, but i remember bringing up an issue with my friend where the torah and science disagree. He kept asking something along the lines of "how do we know that science is correct?" Sure, I don't KNOW that science is correct, but at least it follows guidelines, allows for peer review, and admits to changes in light of changing facts. In short, science starts out with a theory on why or how something is what it is and then goes about looking for evidence that back up or disprove the claims.

Compare that to the fundamental torah approach where the torah is assumed correct regardless of mounting evidence against a specific item within it. It is always he evidence that is viewed as flawed.

Clearly, this just isn't a fair or intellectually honest way of looking at things. While I personally, do not believe in the Torah from God model (TMS), i think if someone treated it as a scientific model and came to that conclusion, it would be a fair fight.

Along the same lines, my wife once asked me what level of proof i would need to satisfy me that God exists and that the torah is true. I responded that just as we wouldn't believe in the tooth fairy without evidence, why would we believe in God, the Torah etc without reasonable evidence. Of course, i made it sound a bit nicer so she didn't get too upset with my utter lack of reverence for Ortho Judaism and its tenents :)

I just don't see how fundies don't see the hypocrisy in bashing science for any possible error (which even scientist admit only they then update their conclusion's), but then giving the Torah a complete pass.

75 comments:

Ari said...

"Along the same lines, my wife once asked me what level of proof i would need to satisfy me that God exists and that the torah is true."

I love this question.

I used to ask it like this:

So how would you rank the following 4 events in order that if they happened you would believe that the Torah was given to Moses by G-d at Har Sinai:

1) An Egyptian account listing scores (read: millions) of slaves leaving (and with or without an account of the plagues) . . .

2) The finding of bones in Israel (or other areas) that appear to be a community of 20 foot tall human beings . . .

3) Extremely large wooden shards of what may have been an ark, although the pieces aren't nearly arranged well enough to conclusively measure the size of such an ark . . .

4) The discovery of the broken tablets deep beneath the Temple Mount, and lo and behold the letters are engraved straight through the tablets, and reads the same from both directions . . .

E-Man said...

I hear your problems. But the truth is science doesn't have an answer to everything either. However, i think that science and orthodox Judaism and be very congruent. I wish you knew the subject you were talking about so that could be discussed here, but either way I appreciate your problems, but I think if you follow the approach of the Rambam, that almost everything in Judaism is explainable by science, then that would appease you much more than the chassidic and charaidi view that nothing needs to be explained.

Anonymous said...

The answer to the question of how do we know science is correct, is that even if you don't know the scientific reason for something, there are plenty of experts out there who do. So if anyone wants to know why science is correct, he can study the field and he'll learn.

E man, do I understand you correctly? You're basing the scientific validity of the Torah on what was known at the Rambam's time?

Ichabod Chrain

Rich Perkins said...

E-man: I never said science had all of the answers. I said that science goes in the direction of the evidence and is willing to change based on new evidence.

Regarding the Rambam, i realize that he is more a of a rationalist, but it is hard to say what he would think based on the evidence we have today. sometimes science does jive with OJ, but sometimes OJ ends up with crazy apologetics to make it fit. As opposed to just admitting that maybe the torah is wrong.

Garnel Ironheart said...

Rich you keep making the same mistake.
Atheism and scientism are religions as much as Judaism is.
Science, on the other hand, is a body of knowledge, a tool.
There is NO conflict between science and Torah as the Torah is not coming to teach us science or even comprehensive history.
The only conflict is between people who believe in scientism and Torah.

Rich Perkins said...

Garnel - First of all, you miss my point regarding the fact that fundies like you would never even entertain evidence that comes against what the torah says. you just take it as a given the the torah is right and that the evidence must be flawed. whereas scientific studies are much more honest in this regard. once again, i realize that science could be wrong as well, but scientists will at least make an effort to strive for the truth based on the evidence.

secondly, how can you say that geological or cosmological sciences don't contradict a literal reading of creation? the only way they fit is by saying that the torah is not literal which in itself is not so simple to say since the torah is literal in every other place.

Garnel Ironheart said...

> i realize that science could be wrong as well, but scientists will at least make an effort to strive for the truth based on the evidence.

You give scientists far too much credit. Most scientists are intellectually honest but many nowadays are ideological, as much as religious folks. Look at the global warming crowd. Or how many cases are there each year where scientists are shown to skew their evidence to get their predetermined results? I recall the shock I felt when it was revealed the Gregor Mendel, the father of modern genetics was discovered to have faked his results. The guy who founded the field!
Yes, most science is good but don't give a blanket credibility to all scientists. That is naive.

> secondly, how can you say that geological or cosmological sciences don't contradict a literal reading of creation?

Now who's not paying attention? (And don't call me a fundie. Do I use insulting terms to refer to you?) I never said the word "literal". And if you read my blog you know that I'm in favour of an interpretive reading of the first chapter of Bereshis to minimize the conflict between scientific evidence and the Torah's account of creation.

Rich Perkins said...

I do not give science a blanket pass, but i think that overall they are more transparent in their research than any religious fundie.

so how do we know what is literal and what is not literal? do we wait for something to conflict with modern science and then declare it allegorical? it just wreaks of intellectual dishonesty to say that some things are literal and some are allegorical. it just can't be both ways.

Garnel Ironheart said...

>so how do we know what is literal and what is not literal?

Are you looking for a real answer? If not, skip the following paragraph.

The Torah is a deep book that can be read on many levels. Why? Because at different points in history, a literal reading will suffice while at other points, an interpretive one is in order. Interpretive readings of the Torah are completely legitimate. If not, you'd have to throw up most of the Talmud and Midrash. The guiding principle of how to understand things is simple: The Torah is true.

Clearly for those who give validity to scientific explanation of how the universe came into being, the way to reconcile the contradiction between Bereshis 1 and natural history is to accept an interpretive understanding of the account of Creation. Done.

> do we wait for something to conflict with modern science and then declare it allegorical?

First of all, it's not allegorical. That would imply that the whole purpose of the first chapter of Bereshis is simply there to teach us moral lessons and not an actual account of Creation which is simply not true. In fact, the first chapter of Bereshis does not contradict the basic stages of the creation of the world but was written so that it could be understood both by us and people living 3500 years ago. As Rav JH Hertz notes in his Chumash, if the Torah had started by saying "In the beginning God created monera, and monera begat protozoa, etc." it would have been rejected as incomprehensible by people living at Sinai.
But modern man, in his arrogance, is incapable of understanding that.

> it just can't be both ways.

First of all, yes it can. Do you want an example from modern literature? Go read "Lord of the Flies". On one level it's a story about a bunch of boys marooned on an island who slowly descend into savagery. On another, it's an allegory about how fragile the veneer of civility is in ever society.

But that's not even the point! The point is that the first chapter of Bereshis is not allegory but rather, worded in such a way as to yield a variety of interpretations while preserving the underlying truth.

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Orthoprax said...

"There is NO conflict between science and Torah as the Torah is not coming to teach us science or even comprehensive history."

So, Garnel, would you agree with the statement that there was never a global flood and humankind does not descend fully from one family who lived in a boat for awhile?

The Leader, Garnel Ironheart said...

No, I would not agree with that statement, Orthoprax. I would rather say that the Torah is, through its stories, more interested in teaching moral lessions than hard, cold fact. Was there a "mabul"? I belive there was because the Torah tells me so. Was it a world wide flood? I don't know, I wasn't there, and maybe the Torah is using words I understand to describe what happened. Did we all descend from one family? Duh. Someone had to be the first human.

Orthoprax said...

Gi,

"Was it a world wide flood? I don't know, I wasn't there, and maybe the Torah is using words I understand to describe what happened."

You're hedging because you know the traditional interpretation cannot jive with the conclusions of modern science. It obviously conflicts quite heavily.

"Duh. Someone had to be the first human."

Was that someone a guy who was alive <4000 years ago and lived on a boat for half a year?

Garnel Ironheart said...

Don't know for sure. Wasn't there. If I was living 100 years ago I'd say we can understand the Torah literally and say "Yes". But with science today one clearly has to understand the Torah in a less than literal sense.

Actually if you've done your genetics you know that mitochondrial DNA does support the idea of a common ancestor for mankind.

Here's my basic position: The Torah is true. Science is relatively accurate. If the numbers science provide don't match the Torah's, I could stick my fingers in my ears and say "Nah, nah, can't hear you" but as someone with scientific training, I can't do that.

Therefore I must conclude that my understanding of the Torah is incorrect and strive to adjust that understanding.

In other words, if you diagnose a patient, treat him and he doesn't get better, you can do one of two things. You can insist your diagnosis must be right and it's the patient's fault for not getting better, or you can re-examine your diagnosis.

Orthoprax said...

GI,

"But with science today one clearly has to understand the Torah in a less than literal sense."

There is another option. But we needn't delve into that.

"Actually if you've done your genetics you know that mitochondrial DNA does support the idea of a common ancestor for mankind."

I'm not going to go into the details but tha mDNA studies only supports the idea that we have our mDNA from a common ancestor. Collectively we have other genetic information that is older and more varied than our mitochondrial Eve.

However this is hardly relevant given that we know that the whole genetic diversity of humanity today cannot descend from one family <4000 years ago.

"Therefore I must conclude that my understanding of the Torah is incorrect and strive to adjust that understanding."

Then you should be able to say that there was no global flood. That's the scientific conclusion. Whatever you think the Torah says, by your method you cannot believe that it means there was a global flood.

Stop hedging. I want to know your understanding of natural history, not your interpretations of scripture.

Garnel Ironheart said...

Hi Orthoprax

I tried to put this up yesterday but it looks like it disappeared into the ether so here goes a second try.

The Torah tells us that the "mabul" lasted 1 year, but also that time as we understand it did not function during that period. Further, we are told that a huge population of animals coexisted peacefully and had an unending supply of food during that year.

What to make of all that? The skeptic will snort, dismiss the whole thing as a fairy tale and announce that this is further proof of the Torah's uselessnes.
The fanatic, on the other hand, will plug his ears, insist on a strictly literal interpretation of the text and dismiss the skeptic's valid questions.

And then, I guess, there's me in the middle. Having read lots of sources, I have my own personal understanding from what I've read.

To wit: Rav S.R. Hirsch (did you buy his Chumash yet, Rich?) convincingly shows that the word "mabul", traditionally translated as "flood" has other potential meanings. He prefers to use the word "destruction". In other words, just like a flood washes over everything and destroys it, so too this "destruction" wiped out almost all life on Earth.
Are there natural precendents for this? Well look at the dinosaurs. Current scientific understanding is that an asteroid struck the Earth and changed the climate, eliminating their competitive advantages over mammals.
I'm not suggestion that the Mabul was a natural event though. I am quite insistent that it was a miracle, from start to finish, which is why the natural historical record can't account for it.
As well, given what I noted about time being suspended during the Mabul, I can only assume that gives us great flexibility with the dates. How long was the flood in time the way we measure it? How long after Noah emerged from the ask did normal time resume? I could suggest it was thousands, millions of years. And that would, in itself, reduce many of the issues. Indeed, there have been recent reports in the popular media about really old civilizations that disappeared without reason 15000 years ago. Were they ante-diluvian? I dunno but to my mind, they could be.
The bottom line: Huge mystery, I accept what the Torah says on faith.

Rich Perkins said...

"The bottom line: Huge mystery, I accept what the Torah says on faith."

Precisely my point, you don't care what the evidence shows. And whatever evidence is shown you try to fit it into the torah so as not to invalidate it at all.

Garnel Ironheart said...

No, you're still missing the point, Rich. I DO care about the evidence because the evidence helps me understand Torah better. But I have red lines I won't go past and if the evidence contradicts too much, then I realize I have an unsolvable mystery and accept that.

Rich Perkins said...

"But I have red lines I won't go past and if the evidence contradicts too much, then I realize I have an unsolvable mystery and accept that."

Again, you are choosing to say that the mystery is "unsolvable" as opposed to saying maybe the torah is possibly wrong.

You have made the torah infallible. So then you must choose to make science fit into it when you can, but, by your own admission, there will be times where it can't and then you have a problem. You deal with the problem by saying that it is unsolvable, but you have to realize that others will deal with this by choosing the evidence against the torah and not just sticking to their faith.

Garnel Ironheart said...

Sure, but that's their problem, not mine.

Faith is about accepting one's limits. It's about saying "I have a problem, I can't undersand how to reconcile these two issues therefore I'm going to accept on faith there must be an answer and live with the mystery."

If someone lacks faith, then they need to find answers elsewhere but if that's the case, the old adage applies: For the believers there are answers. For the non-believers, there are only questions.

Baal Habos said...

>For the believers there are answers.

Right or wrong, there are answers, ey?

And *that's* the difference.

Orthoprax said...

GI,

"How long after Noah emerged from the ask did normal time resume? I could suggest it was thousands, millions of years. And that would, in itself, reduce many of the issues."

You have GOT to be kidding! A time traveling Deluge!?

In ANY event, I won't go delving into that bottomless hole either - but I'm going to ask you very simply if you agree with the following statement:

There was no global flood ~4000 years ago.


"The bottom line: Huge mystery, I accept what the Torah says on faith."

Meaning what? Do you have faith that there was a global flood 4000 years ago or not?

Orthoprax said...

GI,

"If someone lacks faith, then they need to find answers elsewhere but if that's the case, the old adage applies: For the believers there are answers. For the non-believers, there are only questions."

Don't you realize that by making anything unfalsifiable you are inviting people to have faith in, well, ANYTHING?

Dianetics, the Scientology book by L. Ron Hubbard, can just as easily be unfalsifiable if someone has the same kind of faith in it as you do the Torah. And you can offer no arguments based on reason why choosing one book is any better than the other.

How do you know your faith isn't misplaced? How can you possibly justify such faith?

DrJ said...

I'm a guy who like to summarize things but I think this answers the question of this post. My apologies if it sounds like a lecture....

1. Science is a method of acquiring knowledge, not merely a body of knowledge.

2. Religion is also a method of acquiring knowlege, but based on authority.

3. Because of the method of science, its knowledge changes easily as new evidence is gathered, unlike religion, whose knowledge is subjugated to what the authority says.

4. When knowledge acquired from #1 and #2 conflict, cognitive dissonance results. This occurs only in the faithful, since those who accept science also accept that previous knowledge can be wrong and can change. This is not so for faith based knowledge.

5. Cognitive dissonance causes cognitive errors-- such as confirmation bias, denial, rationalization or reformulation to reduce the conflict. However, the abandonment of the idea rarely occurs, because of the emotional investment the person has in the idea.

Think about cognitive dissonance on any issue-- political, religious, or whatever. Think about the pain involved in saying that you were totally wrong about something.

DrJ said...

As a follow up to what I said about cognitive dissonance, consider the following:

Imagine you are a Palestinian, perhaps an open-minded intellectual. You are engaged in a debate with a right wing religious Israeli, who is trying to persuade you of the right of Jews to live in all of Israel, and of the need of Israel to fight terrorists. The Jew justifies his position based on the Torah, as well as historical explanations of previous Jewish presence in the land, in addition to the holocaust.

Now what is the likelihood that this Palestinian will be convinced by your arguments? Approaching 0%, and that estimate is generous.

Why? Cognitive dissonance. He will discount all of the Jew's historic arguments as being fabrications. He will certainly dismiss the Jew's Torah as a forgery. He will rationalize Palestinian violence as "resistance".

Now Jews do the same thing, perhaps to a lesser extent but we still do it.

We'll do anything to avoid turning our mental picture of the world upside down.

The same thing with religious faith. The faithful person has sacrificed everything because of what he believes, and he'll do anything he can not to throw it all in the garbage.

Joshua said...

Sorry, just butting in on one point: Mitochrondrial studies don't say that there was a common female who gave birth to the line that gave everyone. They show that there is a single female whom all of us are descended directly from in the maternal line.

One gets a similar result for males using Y chromosomes. However, and here's the kicker: Those two people could not possibly have lived at the same time. The mutation rates are completely inconsistent with that.

Genetics doesn't support a version of the Adam and Eve story. Quite the opposite.

jewish philosopher said...

Atheism is not based on science. It's based on a stack of porn movies and a pile of dirty towels.

DrJ said...

BTW I know several orthodox people who manage to integrate complete acceptance of scientific finding re archeology, cosmology, evolution, etc, with faith in a metaphysical god representing good in the world. They have no problem reintepreting all of the biblical and rabbinic sayings which contradict science, as being metaphorical and moral narratives.

This of course does reduce the imperative to strictly observe halacha-- halacha becomes more of a man made construct which you voluntarily accept as a way of expressing your Jewishness and belonging to the Jewish people.

Please Read said...

http://www.mesora.org/god/

DrJ said...

"http://www.mesora.org/god/"

This "mass revelation" argument is fallacious. Essentially it is circular reasoning. It says, "people believe the torah because it is true. The torah must be true because people believe it. Therefore the Torah is true.

People will believe anything. Thus all of religion. The fact that a Jew now believes TMS, despite no such tradition among anybody else, proves my point.

shalom said...

how deep does your understanding of the torah go?

do you understand...it actually

WRITES life...for example, 1st paragraph, I'm sulk, wife will be sulk...darn, i wrote soak, (yahha)

divine lights between the lines;

your reading is wise, you say

help me god

a rabbi hears and he cries, he lifted you up in god

I have to go, alot of nagging on this side

E-Man said...

The reason the Jew believes in the Torah is because of the tradition. The Jews all heard G-D speak at Mount Sinai. THis tradition tells the Jews that G-D gave the Torah. Once we have that line of logic there is every reason to believe in the Torah and G-D. Now, if science seemingly contradicts the literal meaning of things in the Torah then one of two things are true according to the Jew that believes his ancestors about Mount Sinai: Science is wrong, like so many times before, or the Torah's simple meaning is not what is meant, rather a deeper meaning is meant.

Baal Habos said...

>The reason the Jew believes in the Torah is because of the tradition. The Jews all heard G-D speak at Mount Sinai. THis tradition tells the Jews that G-D gave the Torah...


The reason Jews believe all heard G-d speak at Mount Sinai is because it's in the Torah.

The reason Jews believe in the Torah is because we Jews believe all heard God speak at Mount Sinai.
The reason Jews believe all heard G-d speak at Mount Sinai is because it's in the Torah.

The reason Jews believe in the Torah is because we Jew believe all heard God speak at Mount Sinai.


The reason Jews believe all heard G-d speak at Mount Sinai is because it's in the Torah.

The reason Jews believe in the Torah is because we Jew believe all heard God speak at Mount Sinai.

The reason Jews believe all heard G-d speak at Mount Sinai is because it's in the Torah.

The reason Jews believe in the Torah is because we Jews believe all heard God speak at Mount Sinai.
The reason Jews believe all heard G-d speak at Mount Sinai is because it's in the Torah.

The reason Jews believe in the Torah is because we Jew believe all heard God speak at Mount Sinai.


The reason Jews believe all heard G-d speak at Mount Sinai is because it's in the Torah.

The reason Jews believe in the Torah is because we Jew believe all heard God speak at Mount Sinai.




Kind of circular, don't you think?

E-Man said...

Incorrect. It is not because it is in the Torah, but because of the oral tradition. It being in the Torah is also a factor, but not the only one. That is why there is oral tradition as well as the written word.

Baal Habos said...

Not true. You get it from the Torah. As a matter of fact , the oral tradition modifies it, and says they only heard the first word, "anoichi". And Some mefarshim say they didn't even hear that. But the concept of the revelation is from the Torah.

And even if you'e correct, OJ treats TSH"B as Torah Shebicsav.

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