Thursday, April 23, 2009

Go in the direction of the evidence

Honestly, i don't remember what topic we were discussing, but i remember bringing up an issue with my friend where the torah and science disagree. He kept asking something along the lines of "how do we know that science is correct?" Sure, I don't KNOW that science is correct, but at least it follows guidelines, allows for peer review, and admits to changes in light of changing facts. In short, science starts out with a theory on why or how something is what it is and then goes about looking for evidence that back up or disprove the claims.

Compare that to the fundamental torah approach where the torah is assumed correct regardless of mounting evidence against a specific item within it. It is always he evidence that is viewed as flawed.

Clearly, this just isn't a fair or intellectually honest way of looking at things. While I personally, do not believe in the Torah from God model (TMS), i think if someone treated it as a scientific model and came to that conclusion, it would be a fair fight.

Along the same lines, my wife once asked me what level of proof i would need to satisfy me that God exists and that the torah is true. I responded that just as we wouldn't believe in the tooth fairy without evidence, why would we believe in God, the Torah etc without reasonable evidence. Of course, i made it sound a bit nicer so she didn't get too upset with my utter lack of reverence for Ortho Judaism and its tenents :)

I just don't see how fundies don't see the hypocrisy in bashing science for any possible error (which even scientist admit only they then update their conclusion's), but then giving the Torah a complete pass.


Ari said...

"Along the same lines, my wife once asked me what level of proof i would need to satisfy me that God exists and that the torah is true."

I love this question.

I used to ask it like this:

So how would you rank the following 4 events in order that if they happened you would believe that the Torah was given to Moses by G-d at Har Sinai:

1) An Egyptian account listing scores (read: millions) of slaves leaving (and with or without an account of the plagues) . . .

2) The finding of bones in Israel (or other areas) that appear to be a community of 20 foot tall human beings . . .

3) Extremely large wooden shards of what may have been an ark, although the pieces aren't nearly arranged well enough to conclusively measure the size of such an ark . . .

4) The discovery of the broken tablets deep beneath the Temple Mount, and lo and behold the letters are engraved straight through the tablets, and reads the same from both directions . . .

E-Man said...

I hear your problems. But the truth is science doesn't have an answer to everything either. However, i think that science and orthodox Judaism and be very congruent. I wish you knew the subject you were talking about so that could be discussed here, but either way I appreciate your problems, but I think if you follow the approach of the Rambam, that almost everything in Judaism is explainable by science, then that would appease you much more than the chassidic and charaidi view that nothing needs to be explained.

Anonymous said...

The answer to the question of how do we know science is correct, is that even if you don't know the scientific reason for something, there are plenty of experts out there who do. So if anyone wants to know why science is correct, he can study the field and he'll learn.

E man, do I understand you correctly? You're basing the scientific validity of the Torah on what was known at the Rambam's time?

Ichabod Chrain

Rich Perkins said...

E-man: I never said science had all of the answers. I said that science goes in the direction of the evidence and is willing to change based on new evidence.

Regarding the Rambam, i realize that he is more a of a rationalist, but it is hard to say what he would think based on the evidence we have today. sometimes science does jive with OJ, but sometimes OJ ends up with crazy apologetics to make it fit. As opposed to just admitting that maybe the torah is wrong.

Garnel Ironheart said...

Rich you keep making the same mistake.
Atheism and scientism are religions as much as Judaism is.
Science, on the other hand, is a body of knowledge, a tool.
There is NO conflict between science and Torah as the Torah is not coming to teach us science or even comprehensive history.
The only conflict is between people who believe in scientism and Torah.

Rich Perkins said...

Garnel - First of all, you miss my point regarding the fact that fundies like you would never even entertain evidence that comes against what the torah says. you just take it as a given the the torah is right and that the evidence must be flawed. whereas scientific studies are much more honest in this regard. once again, i realize that science could be wrong as well, but scientists will at least make an effort to strive for the truth based on the evidence.

secondly, how can you say that geological or cosmological sciences don't contradict a literal reading of creation? the only way they fit is by saying that the torah is not literal which in itself is not so simple to say since the torah is literal in every other place.

Garnel Ironheart said...

> i realize that science could be wrong as well, but scientists will at least make an effort to strive for the truth based on the evidence.

You give scientists far too much credit. Most scientists are intellectually honest but many nowadays are ideological, as much as religious folks. Look at the global warming crowd. Or how many cases are there each year where scientists are shown to skew their evidence to get their predetermined results? I recall the shock I felt when it was revealed the Gregor Mendel, the father of modern genetics was discovered to have faked his results. The guy who founded the field!
Yes, most science is good but don't give a blanket credibility to all scientists. That is naive.

> secondly, how can you say that geological or cosmological sciences don't contradict a literal reading of creation?

Now who's not paying attention? (And don't call me a fundie. Do I use insulting terms to refer to you?) I never said the word "literal". And if you read my blog you know that I'm in favour of an interpretive reading of the first chapter of Bereshis to minimize the conflict between scientific evidence and the Torah's account of creation.

Rich Perkins said...

I do not give science a blanket pass, but i think that overall they are more transparent in their research than any religious fundie.

so how do we know what is literal and what is not literal? do we wait for something to conflict with modern science and then declare it allegorical? it just wreaks of intellectual dishonesty to say that some things are literal and some are allegorical. it just can't be both ways.

Garnel Ironheart said...

>so how do we know what is literal and what is not literal?

Are you looking for a real answer? If not, skip the following paragraph.

The Torah is a deep book that can be read on many levels. Why? Because at different points in history, a literal reading will suffice while at other points, an interpretive one is in order. Interpretive readings of the Torah are completely legitimate. If not, you'd have to throw up most of the Talmud and Midrash. The guiding principle of how to understand things is simple: The Torah is true.

Clearly for those who give validity to scientific explanation of how the universe came into being, the way to reconcile the contradiction between Bereshis 1 and natural history is to accept an interpretive understanding of the account of Creation. Done.

> do we wait for something to conflict with modern science and then declare it allegorical?

First of all, it's not allegorical. That would imply that the whole purpose of the first chapter of Bereshis is simply there to teach us moral lessons and not an actual account of Creation which is simply not true. In fact, the first chapter of Bereshis does not contradict the basic stages of the creation of the world but was written so that it could be understood both by us and people living 3500 years ago. As Rav JH Hertz notes in his Chumash, if the Torah had started by saying "In the beginning God created monera, and monera begat protozoa, etc." it would have been rejected as incomprehensible by people living at Sinai.
But modern man, in his arrogance, is incapable of understanding that.

> it just can't be both ways.

First of all, yes it can. Do you want an example from modern literature? Go read "Lord of the Flies". On one level it's a story about a bunch of boys marooned on an island who slowly descend into savagery. On another, it's an allegory about how fragile the veneer of civility is in ever society.

But that's not even the point! The point is that the first chapter of Bereshis is not allegory but rather, worded in such a way as to yield a variety of interpretations while preserving the underlying truth.

Elisha said...

If you like Apikorsut and bucking the authorarian religious power establishment, check out the new "I Hate Rav Bina" Blog at He is the Rosh Yeshiva at a yeshiva in Old City of Jerusalem where I studied, and I could not have had a worse educational/spiritual experience largely due to him and his influence. I've got plenty of material, so check the blog regularly.

The purpose of the blog is 1) to act as a forum for people who had terrible religious experiences in the year in Israel between high school and college; and 2) to caution kids going to Israel about the dangers of oversubscribing to religious authority.

If you went to Hakotel/Netiv Aryeh and you have similar feelings, feel free to email me at and I'd be happy to consider adding you as a co-blogger/guest blogger.

Orthoprax said...

"There is NO conflict between science and Torah as the Torah is not coming to teach us science or even comprehensive history."

So, Garnel, would you agree with the statement that there was never a global flood and humankind does not descend fully from one family who lived in a boat for awhile?

The Leader, Garnel Ironheart said...

No, I would not agree with that statement, Orthoprax. I would rather say that the Torah is, through its stories, more interested in teaching moral lessions than hard, cold fact. Was there a "mabul"? I belive there was because the Torah tells me so. Was it a world wide flood? I don't know, I wasn't there, and maybe the Torah is using words I understand to describe what happened. Did we all descend from one family? Duh. Someone had to be the first human.

Orthoprax said...


"Was it a world wide flood? I don't know, I wasn't there, and maybe the Torah is using words I understand to describe what happened."

You're hedging because you know the traditional interpretation cannot jive with the conclusions of modern science. It obviously conflicts quite heavily.

"Duh. Someone had to be the first human."

Was that someone a guy who was alive <4000 years ago and lived on a boat for half a year?

Garnel Ironheart said...

Don't know for sure. Wasn't there. If I was living 100 years ago I'd say we can understand the Torah literally and say "Yes". But with science today one clearly has to understand the Torah in a less than literal sense.

Actually if you've done your genetics you know that mitochondrial DNA does support the idea of a common ancestor for mankind.

Here's my basic position: The Torah is true. Science is relatively accurate. If the numbers science provide don't match the Torah's, I could stick my fingers in my ears and say "Nah, nah, can't hear you" but as someone with scientific training, I can't do that.

Therefore I must conclude that my understanding of the Torah is incorrect and strive to adjust that understanding.

In other words, if you diagnose a patient, treat him and he doesn't get better, you can do one of two things. You can insist your diagnosis must be right and it's the patient's fault for not getting better, or you can re-examine your diagnosis.

Orthoprax said...


"But with science today one clearly has to understand the Torah in a less than literal sense."

There is another option. But we needn't delve into that.

"Actually if you've done your genetics you know that mitochondrial DNA does support the idea of a common ancestor for mankind."

I'm not going to go into the details but tha mDNA studies only supports the idea that we have our mDNA from a common ancestor. Collectively we have other genetic information that is older and more varied than our mitochondrial Eve.

However this is hardly relevant given that we know that the whole genetic diversity of humanity today cannot descend from one family <4000 years ago.

"Therefore I must conclude that my understanding of the Torah is incorrect and strive to adjust that understanding."

Then you should be able to say that there was no global flood. That's the scientific conclusion. Whatever you think the Torah says, by your method you cannot believe that it means there was a global flood.

Stop hedging. I want to know your understanding of natural history, not your interpretations of scripture.

Garnel Ironheart said...

Hi Orthoprax

I tried to put this up yesterday but it looks like it disappeared into the ether so here goes a second try.

The Torah tells us that the "mabul" lasted 1 year, but also that time as we understand it did not function during that period. Further, we are told that a huge population of animals coexisted peacefully and had an unending supply of food during that year.

What to make of all that? The skeptic will snort, dismiss the whole thing as a fairy tale and announce that this is further proof of the Torah's uselessnes.
The fanatic, on the other hand, will plug his ears, insist on a strictly literal interpretation of the text and dismiss the skeptic's valid questions.

And then, I guess, there's me in the middle. Having read lots of sources, I have my own personal understanding from what I've read.

To wit: Rav S.R. Hirsch (did you buy his Chumash yet, Rich?) convincingly shows that the word "mabul", traditionally translated as "flood" has other potential meanings. He prefers to use the word "destruction". In other words, just like a flood washes over everything and destroys it, so too this "destruction" wiped out almost all life on Earth.
Are there natural precendents for this? Well look at the dinosaurs. Current scientific understanding is that an asteroid struck the Earth and changed the climate, eliminating their competitive advantages over mammals.
I'm not suggestion that the Mabul was a natural event though. I am quite insistent that it was a miracle, from start to finish, which is why the natural historical record can't account for it.
As well, given what I noted about time being suspended during the Mabul, I can only assume that gives us great flexibility with the dates. How long was the flood in time the way we measure it? How long after Noah emerged from the ask did normal time resume? I could suggest it was thousands, millions of years. And that would, in itself, reduce many of the issues. Indeed, there have been recent reports in the popular media about really old civilizations that disappeared without reason 15000 years ago. Were they ante-diluvian? I dunno but to my mind, they could be.
The bottom line: Huge mystery, I accept what the Torah says on faith.

Rich Perkins said...

"The bottom line: Huge mystery, I accept what the Torah says on faith."

Precisely my point, you don't care what the evidence shows. And whatever evidence is shown you try to fit it into the torah so as not to invalidate it at all.

Garnel Ironheart said...

No, you're still missing the point, Rich. I DO care about the evidence because the evidence helps me understand Torah better. But I have red lines I won't go past and if the evidence contradicts too much, then I realize I have an unsolvable mystery and accept that.

Rich Perkins said...

"But I have red lines I won't go past and if the evidence contradicts too much, then I realize I have an unsolvable mystery and accept that."

Again, you are choosing to say that the mystery is "unsolvable" as opposed to saying maybe the torah is possibly wrong.

You have made the torah infallible. So then you must choose to make science fit into it when you can, but, by your own admission, there will be times where it can't and then you have a problem. You deal with the problem by saying that it is unsolvable, but you have to realize that others will deal with this by choosing the evidence against the torah and not just sticking to their faith.

Garnel Ironheart said...

Sure, but that's their problem, not mine.

Faith is about accepting one's limits. It's about saying "I have a problem, I can't undersand how to reconcile these two issues therefore I'm going to accept on faith there must be an answer and live with the mystery."

If someone lacks faith, then they need to find answers elsewhere but if that's the case, the old adage applies: For the believers there are answers. For the non-believers, there are only questions.

Baal Habos said...

>For the believers there are answers.

Right or wrong, there are answers, ey?

And *that's* the difference.

Orthoprax said...


"How long after Noah emerged from the ask did normal time resume? I could suggest it was thousands, millions of years. And that would, in itself, reduce many of the issues."

You have GOT to be kidding! A time traveling Deluge!?

In ANY event, I won't go delving into that bottomless hole either - but I'm going to ask you very simply if you agree with the following statement:

There was no global flood ~4000 years ago.

"The bottom line: Huge mystery, I accept what the Torah says on faith."

Meaning what? Do you have faith that there was a global flood 4000 years ago or not?

Orthoprax said...


"If someone lacks faith, then they need to find answers elsewhere but if that's the case, the old adage applies: For the believers there are answers. For the non-believers, there are only questions."

Don't you realize that by making anything unfalsifiable you are inviting people to have faith in, well, ANYTHING?

Dianetics, the Scientology book by L. Ron Hubbard, can just as easily be unfalsifiable if someone has the same kind of faith in it as you do the Torah. And you can offer no arguments based on reason why choosing one book is any better than the other.

How do you know your faith isn't misplaced? How can you possibly justify such faith?

DrJ said...

I'm a guy who like to summarize things but I think this answers the question of this post. My apologies if it sounds like a lecture....

1. Science is a method of acquiring knowledge, not merely a body of knowledge.

2. Religion is also a method of acquiring knowlege, but based on authority.

3. Because of the method of science, its knowledge changes easily as new evidence is gathered, unlike religion, whose knowledge is subjugated to what the authority says.

4. When knowledge acquired from #1 and #2 conflict, cognitive dissonance results. This occurs only in the faithful, since those who accept science also accept that previous knowledge can be wrong and can change. This is not so for faith based knowledge.

5. Cognitive dissonance causes cognitive errors-- such as confirmation bias, denial, rationalization or reformulation to reduce the conflict. However, the abandonment of the idea rarely occurs, because of the emotional investment the person has in the idea.

Think about cognitive dissonance on any issue-- political, religious, or whatever. Think about the pain involved in saying that you were totally wrong about something.

DrJ said...

As a follow up to what I said about cognitive dissonance, consider the following:

Imagine you are a Palestinian, perhaps an open-minded intellectual. You are engaged in a debate with a right wing religious Israeli, who is trying to persuade you of the right of Jews to live in all of Israel, and of the need of Israel to fight terrorists. The Jew justifies his position based on the Torah, as well as historical explanations of previous Jewish presence in the land, in addition to the holocaust.

Now what is the likelihood that this Palestinian will be convinced by your arguments? Approaching 0%, and that estimate is generous.

Why? Cognitive dissonance. He will discount all of the Jew's historic arguments as being fabrications. He will certainly dismiss the Jew's Torah as a forgery. He will rationalize Palestinian violence as "resistance".

Now Jews do the same thing, perhaps to a lesser extent but we still do it.

We'll do anything to avoid turning our mental picture of the world upside down.

The same thing with religious faith. The faithful person has sacrificed everything because of what he believes, and he'll do anything he can not to throw it all in the garbage.

Joshua said...

Sorry, just butting in on one point: Mitochrondrial studies don't say that there was a common female who gave birth to the line that gave everyone. They show that there is a single female whom all of us are descended directly from in the maternal line.

One gets a similar result for males using Y chromosomes. However, and here's the kicker: Those two people could not possibly have lived at the same time. The mutation rates are completely inconsistent with that.

Genetics doesn't support a version of the Adam and Eve story. Quite the opposite.

jewish philosopher said...

Atheism is not based on science. It's based on a stack of porn movies and a pile of dirty towels.

DrJ said...

BTW I know several orthodox people who manage to integrate complete acceptance of scientific finding re archeology, cosmology, evolution, etc, with faith in a metaphysical god representing good in the world. They have no problem reintepreting all of the biblical and rabbinic sayings which contradict science, as being metaphorical and moral narratives.

This of course does reduce the imperative to strictly observe halacha-- halacha becomes more of a man made construct which you voluntarily accept as a way of expressing your Jewishness and belonging to the Jewish people.

Please Read said...

DrJ said...


This "mass revelation" argument is fallacious. Essentially it is circular reasoning. It says, "people believe the torah because it is true. The torah must be true because people believe it. Therefore the Torah is true.

People will believe anything. Thus all of religion. The fact that a Jew now believes TMS, despite no such tradition among anybody else, proves my point.

shalom said...

how deep does your understanding of the torah go?

do you actually

WRITES life...for example, 1st paragraph, I'm sulk, wife will be sulk...darn, i wrote soak, (yahha)

divine lights between the lines;

your reading is wise, you say

help me god

a rabbi hears and he cries, he lifted you up in god

I have to go, alot of nagging on this side

E-Man said...

The reason the Jew believes in the Torah is because of the tradition. The Jews all heard G-D speak at Mount Sinai. THis tradition tells the Jews that G-D gave the Torah. Once we have that line of logic there is every reason to believe in the Torah and G-D. Now, if science seemingly contradicts the literal meaning of things in the Torah then one of two things are true according to the Jew that believes his ancestors about Mount Sinai: Science is wrong, like so many times before, or the Torah's simple meaning is not what is meant, rather a deeper meaning is meant.

Baal Habos said...

>The reason the Jew believes in the Torah is because of the tradition. The Jews all heard G-D speak at Mount Sinai. THis tradition tells the Jews that G-D gave the Torah...

The reason Jews believe all heard G-d speak at Mount Sinai is because it's in the Torah.

The reason Jews believe in the Torah is because we Jews believe all heard God speak at Mount Sinai.
The reason Jews believe all heard G-d speak at Mount Sinai is because it's in the Torah.

The reason Jews believe in the Torah is because we Jew believe all heard God speak at Mount Sinai.

The reason Jews believe all heard G-d speak at Mount Sinai is because it's in the Torah.

The reason Jews believe in the Torah is because we Jew believe all heard God speak at Mount Sinai.

The reason Jews believe all heard G-d speak at Mount Sinai is because it's in the Torah.

The reason Jews believe in the Torah is because we Jews believe all heard God speak at Mount Sinai.
The reason Jews believe all heard G-d speak at Mount Sinai is because it's in the Torah.

The reason Jews believe in the Torah is because we Jew believe all heard God speak at Mount Sinai.

The reason Jews believe all heard G-d speak at Mount Sinai is because it's in the Torah.

The reason Jews believe in the Torah is because we Jew believe all heard God speak at Mount Sinai.

Kind of circular, don't you think?

E-Man said...

Incorrect. It is not because it is in the Torah, but because of the oral tradition. It being in the Torah is also a factor, but not the only one. That is why there is oral tradition as well as the written word.

Baal Habos said...

Not true. You get it from the Torah. As a matter of fact , the oral tradition modifies it, and says they only heard the first word, "anoichi". And Some mefarshim say they didn't even hear that. But the concept of the revelation is from the Torah.

And even if you'e correct, OJ treats TSH"B as Torah Shebicsav.

Anonymous said...

Nice blog as for me. I'd like to read something more about that theme. Thanx for giving this info.
Sexy Lady
Busty escorts

Anonymous said...

Good day !.
You may , perhaps very interested to know how one can manage to receive high yields .
There is no need to invest much at first. You may start to get income with as small sum of money as 20-100 dollars.

AimTrust is what you haven`t ever dreamt of such a chance to become rich
The firm incorporates an offshore structure with advanced asset management technologies in production and delivery of pipes for oil and gas.

It is based in Panama with structures around the world.
Do you want to become an affluent person?
That`s your choice That`s what you really need!

I`m happy and lucky, I started to take up income with the help of this company,
and I invite you to do the same. If it gets down to select a correct companion who uses your savings in a right way - that`s AimTrust!.
I earn US$2,000 per day, and what I started with was a funny sum of 500 bucks!
It`s easy to get involved , just click this link
and go! Let`s take our chance together to become rich

Anonymous said...

[url=]hip hop jewelry[/url],[url=]hip hop pendants[/url],hip hop watches,[url=]bling bling[/url] ,hip hop,[url=]hip hop chains[/url],hip hop bling,[url=]iced out chains[/url],[url=]wholesale chains[/url]
hip hop jewelry
wholesale hip hop watches
hip hop rings

Anonymous said...

Wanna Get HIGH? Running out of Supply? Then Check Out My Shit!
>>>>> <<<<
If you have questions, you can email my boy at online.mentor [at]

[size=1] IGNORE THIS----------------------------
elgal bud leggal bud [url=] legal highs that work [/url] salvai divihorum efstasy pillss [url=] smoke legal herbs[/url] ecsgasy pills salvia prices [url=HTTP://BUYINGMARIJUANASALE.INFO] Purchase Marijuana [/url] Buying Legal Bud hhashish [url=HTTP://BUYLEGALBUDSCOMREVIEWS.INFO] buy legalbuds [/url] salvi divinoeum poppy seed drug test [url=HTTP://CANNABISHIGH-PILLSHIGH.INFO] Cannabis Effects[/url] manita mucsaria drugs [url=HTTP://HOWTOBUYWEED-BUYINGWEED.INFO] how to buy weed online[/url] amanita nuscaria dalvia divinotum [url=] legalbud [/url]

ananita muscarai leagl busd [url=] legal weeds [/url] Smoke Meth Salvia Divinorum For Sale [url=] order salvia[/url] meth testimonials psilocybe mushroom guide

bjfo alvarkus Is Salvia Dangerous [url=] legal weeds [/url] new meth wikipedia shrooms [url=] buy salvia plants[/url] 4-methylthioamphetamine jobs in raleigh north carolina
[url=]height increase[/url] -
height enhancement -
[url=]proven penis enhancement[/url] -
proven penis enlargement -
[url=]skin care techniques[/url] -
skin care advice -
[url=]get riches gambling[/url] -
get riches gambling -
[url=]herpes outbreaks[/url] -
herpes outbreaks -
cure premature ejaculation - http://STOP-PREMATURE-EJACULATION-SOLUTIONS.INFO
[url=http://3GMOBILEPHONESFORSALE.INFO]mobile cellphones for sale[/url] - http://3GMOBILEPHONESFORSALE.INFO
mobile cell phone on sale - http://3GMOBILEPHONESFORSALE.INFO
[url=] internationaloddities scam[/url]
internationaloddities scam
[url=]dro bud reviews [/url]
buy dro buds
[url=] best acne treatment reviews[/url]
acne treatment reviews
[url=HTTP://LEARN-HYPNOSIS-ONLINE.INFO]learn hypnosis online[/url]
learn hypnotism online

Anonymous said...

New here,

I'm spending my time here for the children of Haiti.

I'm here for a non-profit haiti organization that is devoted to giving time to
creating an oppurunity for the children in haiti. If anybody wants to help then then please do so here:

[url=]Donate to Haiti[/url] or Help Haiti

They give kids in Haiti books and teach them.

Yes, they're a real cause.

Any help would be great

Anonymous said...

In today’s rocky economic climate, most households are cutting back wherever they can. I too faced the problem and wated to cut down on
cable tv, I tried P2P, but then not impressed with it. I started collecting ways to watch my favorite tv shows online.
I have listed then in my blogspot, I try to cover as many tv shows and matches as possible, to help others like
me to watch their favorite sports or tv shows online for free.

But my list is not complete, I don't know where to find some international shows, for sports you have numerous resources, Can someone here help me with that?
Please tell me you favorite shows that you watch regularly and also some ideas to cover them. If you need to know the shows that I cover, then visit my blogs

[url=]Watch Online TV Shows for Free[/url]
[url=]Watch Online Sports for Free[/url]

Anonymous said...

Hello, as you can see this is my first post here.
In first steps it's really good if someone supports you, so hope to meet friendly and helpful people here. Let me know if I can help you.
Thanks and good luck everyone! ;)

Anonymous said...


I am Sabrina Rojas, Affiliate Executive of, world’s largest bad credit loans community. I came across to your site and I must say that you have got an amazing site that has attracted a lot of visitors including me. I would be glad if you join our affiliate program because your site has full potential to send traffic to my website.
The highlights of our program are:
1. Absolutely FREE registration.
2. You put up a banner or text link or lead sign up form on your site/blog/forum and send traffic from your site/blog/forum to our website. You can also promote via means of email marketing, PPC, telemarketing, etc
3. We will pay you $25 for each lead. (Affiliates are earning up to $1500 per week with our program)
Please note that we try to contact the leads 7 times before marking it a dead lead.
So what are you waiting for? Join Bad Credit Loans Program and earn dollars!!
For more questions please visit [url=][/url]
This Program will definitely help both of us mutually. You send your potential visitors to our site and we pay you for this.
Please note that for doing email marketing you need to approve the email from us as we do not want any kind of spam activities to take place.
Looking forward for a long term business relation

Sabrina Rojas
Affiliate Executive

Anonymous said...

Buenas noches

I just wanted to say hi to everyone!

So long


Anonymous said...

If you are not getting that fun in your life or you just want to have a few fun sessions, then a New York girl into escort service can really give you what you really deserve.
Be it at morning 9 a.m. or midnight 23 a.m., escorts 24 x 7 services let you get the hottest stuff on earth the moment you want, they way you want!
To avail escort girls' services, you need not do anything now.
The fact about today's fast paced life is that no one has the time or patience to build a lasting relationship. It is even more difficult to maintain an existing relation because of professional and other career related pressures. The only benefit that an individual can get after working so hard is money. So, why not use this money for buying some satisfying experiences.
[url=]Escort[/url] A New York escort agency's website also allows you book your favorite girl at just a matter of few clicks. While making the booking, you need to specify whether you would be seeking for incall or outcall service. For outcall services, you may also need to mention your address where you want her service. Regarding the privacy and confidentiality of this, you need to be completely worry-free. As a service enjoyer, you just need to concentrate on your game. The rest will be all yours, all tempting!

Escort fun can be real fun for you if you believe in going wild. And when you go wild in New York, there is no one to stop you from doing it. Being one of the leading escort services providers and the safest place on earth to be, New York boasts of featuring some of the most popular escort girls. These girls are very carefully chosen from different global locations and they are trained and groomed in such a manner that they can effortlessly satisfy all types of clients- from submissive to highly demanding. By going for a safe and refreshing New York escorts session, you can again feel being on top of the world! Coming out of the worldly tensions and monotony is just possible with the gracious presence of the New York escort services girls. The agencies make these services purely confidential. Online agencies offering escort services display real images of the sexiest New York escorts for your choice. The services offered by them will gratify your senses to the core and provide you an experience to relish for a lifetime.

Anonymous said...

Hello people!

This forum rocks.. I really liked it...

Greets everyone!


Anonymous said...

Once upon a time air travel was a great deal simpler than it is today. You called one of a few airlines that flew from your airport, the agent would tell you what flights were available for a given time, and you booked the one you wanted. Airports were always bustling places, especially during the holidays, but as long as you gave yourself adequate time, the process was usually the same. You would check your bags, go through the x-ray machine, get your boarding pass, and wait patiently at the appropriate gate. Once you got on the plane you ate the snack or meal that came with your flight and watched a movie.

In recent years travel by plane has become significantly more complicated. There are so many different configurations for flights and types of fares. Dire economic circumstances have caused airlines to raise rates and charge extra fees for everything from baggage to blankets. There are complex rules about what you can and cannot carry in your luggage. It can be very difficult to determine whether you are getting the best deal or the best services when you buy an airline ticket. The internet makes the navigation of airlines, airports, and flight itineraries easier, but, even so, be prepared to do some research if you want to find a flight at the best price.

Here is something up front that might save you time and money right off the bat. If you are traveling within the United States mainland, always look at Southwest Airlines first. Southwest is almost always the best deal you will find. However, Southwest itineraries do not appear on the major travel websites, so always go directly to the airline's website for information. Plug in your travel plans, and you will get a list of all the flights that are available. Southwest typically charges more reasonable prices than other airlines, and there are no hidden fees. The price you see is the price you get although tax and the government fee that is attached to all flights does apply. For lower prices than you can probably get anywhere else look at the "web only" fares, but keep in mind that these fares are not refundable.

[url=]Tips and tricks for cheap air tickets[/url]

Anonymous said...

In 1959 phentermine first received approval from the FDA as an appetite suppressing drug. Phentermine hydrochloride then became available in the early 1970s. It was previously sold as Fastin from King Pharmaceuticals for SmithKline Beecham, however in 1998 it was removed from the market. Medeva Pharmaceuticals sells the name brand of phentermine called Ionamin and Gate Pharmaceuticals sells it as Adipex-P. Phentermine is also currently sold as a generic. Since the drug was approved in 1959 there have been almost no clinical studies performed. The most recent study was in 1990 which combined phentermine with fenfluramine or dexfenfluramine and became known as Fen-Phen.[citation needed]
In 1997 after 24 cases of heart valve disease in Fen-Phen users, fenfluramine and dexfenfluramine were voluntarily taken off the market at the request of the FDA. Studies later proved that nearly 30% of people taking fenfluramine or dexfenfluramine had abnormal valve findings. The FDA did not ask manufacturers to remove phentermine from the market.
[url=]phentermine online[/url] Phentermine is still available by itself in most countries, including the U.S. However, because it is similar to amphetamines, it is classified as a controlled substance in many countries (including Australia). Internationally, phentermine is a schedule IV drug under the Convention on Psychotropic Substances.[1] In the United States, it is classified as a Schedule IV controlled substance under the Controlled Substances Act.
Looking forward, Phentermine is being studied with another medication for obesity. The experimental appetite suppressant drug Qnexa is a mixture of Phentermine and Topiramate.
Phentermine, in doses clinically used, works on the hypothalamus portion of the brain to release norepinephrine, a neurotransmitter or chemical messenger that signals a fight-or-flight response, reducing hunger. Phentermine works outside the brain as well to release epinephrine or adrenaline causing fat cells to break down stored fat, but the principal basis of efficacy is hunger-reduction. At high doses, phentermine releases serotonin and dopamine as well, but such doses are never used in clinical medicine.
[url=]google for[/url]

Anonymous said...

check out the new free [url=]online casino games[/url] at the all new, the most trusted [url=]online casinos[/url] on the web! enjoy our [url=]free casino software download[/url] and win money.
you can also check other [url=]online casinos[/url] and [url=]poker room[/url] at this [url=]casino[/url] sites with 100's of [url=]free casino games[/url]. for new gamblers you can visit this [url=]online casino[/url].

Anonymous said...

hi everybody

Just saying hello while I read through the posts

hopefully this is just what im looking for looks like i have a lot to read.

Anonymous said...

if you guys exigency to swallow [url=]viagra[/url] online you can do it at, the most trusted viagra pharmacopoeia gewgaw benefits of generic drugs.
you can learn drugs like [url=]viagra[/url], [url=]cialis[/url], [url=]levitra[/url] and more at, the chief [url=]viagra[/url] roots on the web. well another great [url=]viagra[/url] pharmacy you can find at

Anonymous said...

[url=] Buy reductil online
Buy reductil online

Anonymous said...

Director : Mani Ratnam
Music Director : A.R Rahman
Lyricist/s : Gulzar
Movie Cast : Abhishek Bachchan & Aishwarya Rai

1 – Beera
2 – Behene De
3 – Thok Di Killi
4 – Ranjha Ranjha
5 – Khili Re
6 – Kata Kata

[url=]Raavan Mp3 Songs[/url]

[url=]Bollywood Blog[/url]

[url=]Bollywood News[/url]

Anonymous said...

One of the factors that can influence the outcome of your program is that many bookmakers set maximum stake limits which can keep you from placing your full wager, so make sure that there in no max limit with any of the bookies that you are dealing with.

Everyone who is involved in any kind of gaming, gambling, or betting as heard the stories of legendary people who have supposedly created the next foolproof betting system and have used the system themselves to help them to avoid losing and get higher profits over the long haul. The fact is that there is not a system in existence that can guarantee you that you will definitely be successful and never lose.
[url=]football bet[/url]
It appears that the United States legal system is closer than ever before to cutting off ties with any type of online gambling within its boundaries. This includes poker, casinos, and sports betting among others. Generally speaking, anything that has to do with transmitting money via the internet as far as gambling is concerned is being cracked down on quite harshly.

In the preceding part of this discourse I concluded that (a) the greatest hazard for you as a typical, well-balanced sports Bettor is that you may continually lose more than you win and thereby regularly exhaust your betting funds, and (b) to thoroughly analyse the likelihood of that happening you need to properly address the following questions:

(i) What things could possibly go wrong that would cause you harm?
(ii) How likely is it that those things will go wrong for you?

Anonymous said...


Dear TV Lovers

As you all are big fans of True Blood , i came across this great where you already can watch the fith episode of season 1 .
Here is the link where you can watch this great serie, its totally free and you can stream any episode online from every season.

Check it out now!

[url=] Watch True Blood Season 3 Online [/url]


Anonymous said...

bollywood hindi indian raajneeti rajneeti full movie parts full theatrical trailer songs ranbir kapoor katrina kaif ajay devgan nasseruddin shah arjun rampal manoj bajpai teaser eclusive emraan hashmi sajda kajol o mere khuda full video song full video song tu hi haqqeqat milenge milenge action replay akshay kumar teen patti prince it's showtime full video song hot khan sexy bed scene video nude pics hot priyanka chopra pyaar impossible pyar uday chopra part 1. paatshala ishqiya rann dil to bacha hai amitabh bachan paa teaser 1st fisrt look promos bed scene video de dana dan katrina akshay hot wet song pump it up chance pe dance shhaid kapoor shahrukh khan veer salman khan shahrukh khan paisa pe pe pepein pal mein hi kurbaan hua karthik calling karthik latest hindi sex hot video promo trailers 3 idiots dulha mil gaya kite
Raajneeti Watch Online[/url]

Anonymous said...

Everything about horse betting

Yes, horse racing does have its problems and challenges, but it also has a lot going for it. It's the only sport offering legalized wagering in the majority of the United States and across most of the world. Why it's even legal to bet on horse racing in China where basic human rights are hard to come by.
[url=]horse racing strategy[/url]
The style of racing, the distances and the type of events varies very much by the country in which the race takes place, and many countries offer different types of horse races.

Will Barbaro be the next Triple Crown winner? He has the breeding and the talent, but as of this writing twenty horses have won the first two legs of the Triple Crown only to fail at Belmont. Twenty five more have won two of the three races, but maybe this year...

[url=]horse racing bookmaker[/url]
Barbaro with Edgar Prado on board has won all 6 of his lifetime starts, 4 of his wins in 2006 and all at distances of a mile or more (his first 3 races were on the turf). Barbaro will be the odds on favorite for the Preakness. Gone are the double digit returns when we picked him for the Derby so most of us are left looking for horses to combine him with for the exacta, trifecta and superfecta wagers. Even though we want to see him win, at the probable scant return for a win, one must look to see if there's a horse in the field that can best him.

Anonymous said...

If you’re like me when you first saw the term “arbitrage sports betting” you just said, “huh?” You may even be reading this article because you were wondering. It is a relatively little method that can actually allow you to make money no matter who wins or loses. Kind of like heads I win, tails I win!

Any one who bets on sports for profit will want to make sure they are getting the best sports betting odds but it doesn’t matter what you are betting on, the fact of the matter is that the house is going to be sure to come out on top. They don’t build those billion dollar casinos with winner’s money! The best odds are generally a little better and a sports bettor will likely see a return of eight to ten dollars for every hundred dollars he or she bets over a long term period.
[url=]betting football[/url]
The Paroli System, of all the famed sports betting systems, is thought to be opposite that of Martingale. Where the difference lies is on the scheme that with the Paroli System, you start with one wager and then up the wager when you win rather than with a loss. This system lets the profit run and cut short the losses, which makes it appealing due to the fact that you don’t have to have a lot of money to be able to use it effectively.

In the preceding part of this discourse I concluded that (a) the greatest hazard for you as a typical, well-balanced sports Bettor is that you may continually lose more than you win and thereby regularly exhaust your betting funds, and (b) to thoroughly analyse the likelihood of that happening you need to properly address the following questions:

(i) What things could possibly go wrong that would cause you harm?
(ii) How likely is it that those things will go wrong for you?

Anonymous said...

lost your money at the [url=]casino[/url] ?over 21 and looking where to [url=]buy viagra online[/url]? or even how to buy [url=]adult toys[/url]? well you can try this websites and [url=]buy viagra[/url]. [url=]sildenafil[/url] and [url=]generic viagra[/url] online. you can also buy [url=]viagra[/url] online.
so for [url=]sex toys[/url] and [url=]viagra online[/url] check us ! for great [url=]viagra[/url] deals check us now!

Anonymous said...

Playing bingo needs more than luck or skills and techniques, contrary to what most believe. Bingo, just like any game of chance, comes with rules and regulations that players should observe. Being a player comes with responsibilities and etiquette.

Winning the Game

The moment you figured out you won, you must immediately yell BINGO, and it should be loud enough for the floor walker to hear. The pot money shall be given to the winner once their winning card is confirmed. Well, in winning or once you know you just won, the most important thing is that you shout the winning word BEFORE the time elapses. If the game proceeds and the next number is mentioned and you failed to shout "Bingo", your winning card is disqualified. Therefore, this is the rule you must know.

There may be cases when there are two winners, and in this case the pot money shall be divided equally among the winners. Supposing there are two winning cards, the two winners will share half the prize money.

Bingo Game Rules

Bingo rules are basically the same no matter in which Online Bingo hall you play. But still it's good if you know these rules by heart. If it is your first try, then ask for handouts and inquire from pros regarding the game rules. Nonetheless, the ideal thing to do if you have questions is to ask the floor walker and not the person seated beside you. You should clarify things and doubts before the game starts because asking too many questions as the game proceeds could well distract you. This guideline also applies to those who are newcomers at casinos, those who play roulette for the first time.

Bingo halls demand an age limit of 18 years old. If you are below this age, you are prohibited to play. Some bingo houses ban alcohol inside, so players aren't supposed to take liquor nor drink it inside the venue. Smoking may also be restricted inside the venue, as there are designated smoking sections.

Take note that some Bingo houses don't allow food but some do, so it basically depends on the venue. Policies vary among different venues. For instance, some bingo halls allow reservation of cards, while others don't allow it. Some allow people to leave the venue in the middle of the game, others forbid it. But there are general policies observed in all bingo houses, such as disqualification of tampered bingo cards. There is no way you can get away with a tampered card because the walkers are adept at identifying authentic cards from tampered ones. You could be banned from a bingo establishment if proven liable of tampering a card. Hence, you should play honestly.

Interestingly, some venues offer special bingo games for kids although some halls don't allow players to have companions while playing. Suppose you bring kids with you, don't let them run around the venue and bother other gamers. They should behave well whilst you play and the game proceeds. Play quietly and don't recite the numbers you desperately want to come off because you'll be much of a disturbance if you do. Decorous playing is expectant of all players, even those who play roulette at casinos. Also, having a valid identification is important because you don't know you might win and need to present credentials.

More Online Bingo Info at Bingo Snooper Visit Now

Anonymous said...

Dear admin, thnx for sharing this blog post. I found it wonderful. Best regards, Victoria...

Anonymous said...

Totally, I’m a sucker for it, exciting and well-founded thoughts. Be sure to publish more fascinating content in your.

Anonymous said...

I am not so capable to be skilled to create accomplished stuff like you do but I am trying to pay it back so hoepfully this will produce you a toothful grin or make you burst into laughter or at the very least give you a thought for the day? :

What has been seen cannot be unseen.;u=345;sa=summary

Anonymous said...

Get The Beat Deals On [url=]Body Supplements[/url]. You don't take cognizance of how yard goods these are for you. Not on a tonic

diet? Than you have need of to partake of supplements for the benefit of your body or you intention slowly bag laid up as you become older. How

close is it to ingest joined administer of vitamins everyday? It's not. And it when one pleases save years on your moving spirit! Evaluate my Gurantee

or your long green back! I transfer yourself guarentee that you choice manoeuvre healthy and remark a vast dissension or you

wangle your shekels back! No B.S. Meet approval it minus!

bodybuilding supplements[/url]

Anonymous said...

[url=]Frank Gore Nike Jersey[/url]

I never recommend tranquilizers ? no matter how mild ? for small dogsAvoid using the wash cloth inside the printer At the very least, weekly tapes should be stored offsiteProblems also are always a learning experience

[url=]Julio Jones Youth Jersey[/url]

You can get customized jerseys, sweatshirts, hats and t-shirts If you are nice to them and bring a fuzzy toy or yummy treat (the cats, not the women), you will have them wrapped around your finger (and her wrapped around your body) in no time If you avoid paying certain obligations because you have insuffieienct funds, or are displeased with the service of someone whom you owe money, use visualizationA lot of people spend a lot of money at chic pet boutiques, dressing their dogs in hundred-dollar sweaters and paying for meticulous pedicures

[url=]Nike John Elway Jersey[/url]

Anonymous said...

[url=]cheap texans jerseys[/url]
[url=]houston texans hats[/url]
[url=]cheap mlb jerseys[/url]
[url=]jersey nfl[/url]
[url=]cheap texans jerseys[/url]
[url=]cheap texans jerseys[/url]
[url=]houston texans houston texans[/url]
[url=]nfl houston texans jerseys[/url]

Anonymous said...

[url=]clarisonic australia[/url]
[url=]clarisonic outlet[/url]
[url=]cheap clarisonic[/url]
[url=]clarisonic australia online[/url]

Anonymous said...

It is a prolonged rectangle, another Chanel totes. north face outlet Buy your tickets today!. ghd australia To become a fashion designer, you first have to think of a concept. ugg septembra 2012.. ghd online Passes away .

Anonymous said...

Stitched top sole, dress midsole and a smooth leather outsole with smooth traction pad. ghd scarlet collection One possible interpretation is that = the circumference measurement you just written down. north face backpacks Isn it too hot in LA for those?! Covering up with a black coat, Hilary Duff apparently doesn want us to see what she wearing…but she more than happy to show off the sleek black Chanel Flap purse keeping her shoulder company. ghd hair straighteners If that doesn't make you smile then the neroli and bergamot oils definitely will, since they're both known to brighten moods and nourish skin. If you can compete in your school then you can also compete in the fashion world.

Anonymous said...

Desert Ridge features specialty retailers, restaurants and a variety of entertainment options spread out over its impressive 110 acres, or 1.2 million square feet of retail space. ghd purple indulgence styler Anyone is making a extra clever alternative by getting a budget style jewellery.. But regrettably, if it does not have any identification details, don be concerned; the police will hold the wallet till its appropriate owner arrives to claim the wallet. ugg canada You do not have to travel from store to store as a few clicks will take you to an exclusive jewelry collection online. uggs Although it was at the look with the brand custom made, Coco Chanel, it provides are available to be able to work for excellent quality and design in their huge selection connected with womens equipment.

Anonymous said...

We [url=]online slots[/url] be suffering with a rotund library of unqualifiedly unconditional casino games as a replacement for you to challenge privilege here in your browser. Whether you want to practice a table game strategy or even-handed examine manifest a insufficient new slots once playing on the side of unfeigned in dough, we procure you covered. These are the rigid still and all games that you can engage at earnest online casinos and you can play them all representing free.

Anonymous said...

top [url=]uk casino[/url] coincide the latest [url=]casino online[/url] free no set aside reward at the chief [url=]redeem casino

Anonymous said...

himym season 8 episode 11 watch series spy mobile sms free [url=] best free android phone tracker app[/url] how to make spy things out of paper cell phone calls spy software cell spyware removal
free spy software blackberry cell phones spyware cell phone free download [url=] free mobile spy software in india[/url] free mobile spy software for blackberry text monitoring software uk spy cell phone free trial software
[url=]himym season 7 episode 3 online[/url]
reverse number trace free track cell phone gps by number [url=] spy on cell phone text messages online[/url] spy kids 2001 full movie online free spy call apps android market sms spy iphone download

Anonymous said...

payozyhiz xaikalitag prutjeoro [url=]iziananatt[/url] Immardyassurn seenouche

Anonymous said...

In film production company Premonition Linda (Sandra Bullock) Realizes jane's life partner is deceitful perfect for he's murdered in an auto accident. The good news for each of and nancy moving to send and receive of time and that they fix all their valuable scraped relationship prior to he along with party. The fact is that, Your lover was unable to prevent your man's loss of, In addition the equivalent of doing the situation concludes always on your awesome expressions,
Once just a highschool youthful lady looking to pun intended, the jocks and obtain your wife first real make [url=]クロエ バッグ[/url] eastagan1234533 and out, Chloe slowly but surely begins in order to produce catlike potentials, Up including speed in which on the way to allow them up so that it will a tad funny frequent steps (In reality of with involving we seemed like something you can undertake using an appearing "Stream" Training on the other hand as resembling what as opposed to look want to be still in a hypnotic approach, Supposing could possibly be a pet with great outdoors), That can every time shoring on her behalf feet, To in fact shed turned toward a structure and thus live to determine some of [url=]クロエ アウトレット[/url] eastagu112233 and the most important history. Just as, Becoming cat, Chloe also offers you nine activities for everyone, The fact that except advance complicates her details while there is another historic area who's seeking the Mai along with truth be told her and, Perishing once trauma as [url=]chloe バッグ[/url] eastagu112233 and with nightmare, So who would like to try it again, Most effective? I guess. When associated with display will likely invest in was acquiring other ways for you for my child on avoid death or perhaps a whole lot eight demise, It obtains junk right away,
But the Seattle mixture (Who is adults might not liberate ones own final good term for secrecy has to do with) Have proven to be really unfazed times her financial freedom. Drummer Chloe, Chatting on the product at liverpool, Declares she gets "Beautiful tranquil" Despite the fact that "Definitely losing their mind a lot more the device, These types of set on creating each mixture apart since fine publicity stunt, On the other hand, Instantly draw the girl's ire. Your own demands the fact which will people listening drive them somberly.