So I am sitting in shul last week and we read in the parsha the comandment that you "Can't add or subtract from the Torah". Before I get to my issues with the Torah She Ba'al Peh, can someone explain to me how we have hilchot d'rabanan? How can the rabbis add something like muktzah on shabbat when that is clearly not what the torah said? How can they add extra boundaries to make sure we don't transgress the real torah laws? wouldn't you think God knew what he was doing when he made it up?
Regarding Torah She Ba'al Peh . . . Does it not bother anyone else that it isn't mentioned in the Written Torah (i.e. the 5 books of Moses)? Of course, this is assuming for the sake of argument that there is no question that the Written Torah is divine. I just can't get past the fact that we have so many laws that have nothing to do with what is plainly written in the torah.
so what's the deal?
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It says in the torah shebichtav that you can't "turn away" from what the rabbis or leaders or whatever tell us - also, lo bashamayim hee - the torah was given - but it is up to humans to interpret and define.
we need our leaders to interpret and define - layman cannot. only holy, illuyish leaders can guide....we follow
Can you please tell me where it says that?
Also, I don't think i would have a problem if the Rabbis where just giving a simple interpretation. However, the halachot we have very often do not resemble at all what is written in the Torah.
For example, take kashrut where the rules we have go WAY beyond any interpretation you can learn from the Torah's words.
Also, if it is up to humans to interpret the Torah, you are really giving humans the opportunity to completely stray from what G0d intended so long as they have some textual reference. I think that defeats the purpose of God giving the torah as a guidebook for our lives.
Bankman,
>It says in the torah shebichtav that you can't "turn away" from what the rabbis or leaders or whatever tell us - also, lo bashamayim hee - the torah was given - but it is up to humans to interpret and define.
But you're taking that out of context. It says it specifically with respect to Jews going to seek Judgement in a court case.
I have more to say on this, maybe later.
Rich, Good Luck to you on this new endeavor!
Rambam says in Hilchot Mamrim 2:9:
The Rabbinical Courts maintain the right to issue decrees and forbid that which is [biblically] permitted, and these prohibitions stand for perpetuity. They are also entitled to temporarily lift Torah prohibitions.3 So what is the meaning of the Torah's prohibition: "You shall neither add to it, nor subtract from it"?
[Rather, the intent of this prohibition is that we] not add on the words of the Torah nor subtract from them, and permanently establish [the addition or subtraction] as part of the Scriptures. This [prohibition] applies both to the Written Law as well as the Oral Tradition [transmitted to Moses on Mount Sinai].
For more details see Yeshiva.org
Hi all,
Lo BaShamayim Hi is in either Netzavim or VaYelech.
As for what is being referred to there, it sounds literally like the torah is saying that man is to interpret. However, the specifics regarding when, how, where, why, et cetera are completely ambiguous as far I can remember off the top of my head and sometimes yeah, it does seem like interpretation has been taken way too far.
As for not turning away, it's referring to what the torah says - it is not saying that one may not ignore the leaders. That is else where - in Devarim it states that one is to listen to the leaders of the generation. The question here is who is considered to be a leader and who is not. This is where it would be much simpler if Rabbanim and Gedolim would keep themselves out of the political arena as political squabbling only results in disrespect (I include Rav Aviner, Rav Elyashiv and company in Meah Shearim, both Rav Alons and Rav Ovadia Yosef in this statement).
And Rich, good luck in your quest and this endeavor!
The law of listening to a judge is a judge with semicha. There is no more semicha so the law does not apply.
During the middle ages a psudo semicha was started by R. Meir Halevi from Vienna which is what is done today. But it has nothing to do with the Torah law of listening to a judge with real semicha.
However I have noticed most orthodox rabbi like to pretend like they have some authority.
It is unfortunate. According to The Rambam, the halacha is closed. It is in the Talmud Babli. After the Sium HatAlmud no one can say anything is a halacha unless it is contained there.(Intro to Mishna Torah)
Boy, oh boy, someone did a lousy job educating you. No wonder you have so many doubts and questions.
Okay, quickly then:
1) When the Torah talks about not adding or deleting, it refers specifically to those mitzvos we consider d'oraisa. Rashi brings immediately examples, like adding a 5th species to the lulav or a 5th parsha to tefillin. If you observe the rabbinical rules carefully, you will note they follow this principle carefully. There may be 1000's of rules about how to write and prepare tefillin, but no one has ever suggested throwing in a 5th parsha just to be safe. Similarly with lulavs, yes there's lots of colour books on how to buy the perfect esrog but no one says get two just in case one's not okay.
In addition, one must remember that there are rules set down by the Gemara as to how to interpret halachah and expand upon it. These rules are put down in various places. One major example is at the end of YD 110 (I think) where the Shach goes into the rules of how to handle a double doubt, s'fek sfeikah and what exactly one is. The halachic process is not simply a bunch of rabbis sitting around saying "Hey, what new prohibitions can we come up with today?" (Okay fine, nowadays it seems to be but traditionally it's not!) rather it's the understanding and applying of those rules to new situations. For example in kashrus new types of overs, new cooking utensil materials, etc. all have to be accounted for according to the original principles. How they are is how the halachich process works.
2) In the written Torah, in this week's parshah Moshe mentions the concept of shechitah for animals. His entire explanation of how to do it is: "as I've shown you". Yet nowhere in the Torah does it say where he showed them or describe the process! If you're truly interested, I would suggest carefully going over the commentary of Rav Shimshon Rafael Hirsch on the Chumash. One of his main themes is showing how the oral law is alluded to openly and repeatedly by the written law. It may answer many of your questions.
Finally, don't conclude that because you've been shown a boring, meaningless Judaism that real Judaism is boring and meaningless. Expand your focus, look at other Torah observant communities, and see what else there is out there. You might be pleasantly suprised.
What laws have nothing to do with what's written in the Torah? The synagogue? It's a substitute for the Temple. Purim? It didn't happen yet when the Torah was written.
Larry - So where does the Rambam get an explanation like that? I just feel that God gave us the rules he wanted us to follow so why would he leave some out. Seems to me like th Rambam is just twisting the plain meaning of the torah.
Garnel . . .
"it refers specifically to those mitzvos we consider d'oraisa"
So why can't the torah just say say that? All this ambiguity just created more problems.
"Finally, don't conclude that because you've been shown a boring, meaningless Judaism that real Judaism is boring and meaningless."
Clearly, I am interested in getting answers or else I would not be here taking time to seek answers. However, I think you have to be open to the fact that the answers I come to may not lead me to OJ as the one true answer.
JP . . .
Kashrut - anything we do beyond kosher animals, not COOKING a goat in it mother's milk and shecitah seems to be beyond anything the torah says.
shabbat - couldn't the torah have added a sentence that said not to do malacha on shabbat that is like the malacha done in the mishkan? instead it just says to rest. And what about muktzah, that is clearly rabbinic
general stuff - what about all the shulchan aruch stuff about how to put on shoes, how to clip you nails etc.
Rambam gets the idea of rabbinical authority from the Oral Torah. It is clear from the text of the Torah it was never meant to be a complete document. The text itself says in Devarim 17:8-13 that matters that do not have a settled decision shall be decided by the judges of the land in that day. Whether you think that means priests, judges, or rabbis is something that can be debated. It seems clear to me that contemporary rabbis do not have the authority that rabbis of the Talmudic era do because of the lack of biblical smicha.
In the longer version of the quote from the Rambam, he gives the example of the rabbinic declaration that chicken counts as meat for purposes of being mixed with dairy. He says that this is legitimate because firstly, the rabbis found a need for making a precautionary fence, and secondly because the law is clearly stated to be as rabbinic in origin. This has practical implications - for example you can feed a mixture of chicken and milk to a dog but you can't feed a mixture of (kosher*) beef and milk to one. A rabbinic law is interpreted leniently in cases of doubt while a biblical law is interpreted strictly.
Rambam says that if a court were to declare that chicken and milk mixtures were prohibited as a matter of Torah law, this would be a violation of the sin of adding on to the Torah.
I really think you should read Rav Hirsch's peirush. Every challenge you're raising is dealt with, including the whole meat-milk thing. It's just not taught in the yeshivah world.
"I just can't get past the fact that we have so many laws that have nothing to do with what is plainly written in the torah."
Last time I checked, Shabbat and kashrut have something to do with what's written in the Torah.
Garnel - I do not have a Hirsch Chumash. Would you be able to scan the information and send it to me? I would be happy to read it.
JP - The way we ACTUALLY observe kashrut and shabbat are certainly NOT alluded to in the torah. The concepts are there, but the details we keep are far from those basic concepts that are mentioned. For shabbat it doesn't even say that we can't do the 39 malachot. that is from the oral torah and they bring up the fact that since they are mentioned side by side.
I think it's clear that the Oral Law is authentic.
Hey Rich,
Tell you what, remind me in two weeks or so. I'm currently in the final stages of a major project, and then I'll be happy to scan the relevant stuff.
Glad to see you've created a blog. Welcome to the club!
Garnel Ironheart,
> Rashi brings immediately examples...there are rules set down by the Gemara...
Interesting that you bring examples from TSBP to prove TSBP.
> Moshe mentions the concept of shechitah for animals. His entire explanation of how to do it is: "as I've shown you".
This is a better argument but shouldn't this only apply to shechitah? If not, why not?
Garnel -
"Moshe mentions the concept of shechitah for animals. His entire explanation of how to do it is: "as I've shown you".
Actually, i think bringing this up creates a bigger problem. If this is the proof that TSBP explains shechitah, then it should say the same thing a myriad of times through the torah for other mitzvot.
JP -
I had a look at your post and just don't think your "proof" holds up. In the gemarah itself, they argue about the halacha.
lots of people accept christianity, but that does not make it true. similarly, just because the gedolim accepted a previous godol's assertions does not make them true.
finally, maybe you didn't get one of my issues from earlier. I just don't understand how ANY godol has the right to make a rabbinic decree that was not explicitly stated in the torah.
Shechitah is, by no means, the only example.
For another, consider that after Aharon's two sons were killed Aharon ate of two of the dedication sacrifices that day but burned the third. His reasoning? That since two of the sacrifices were one-timers, eating them overrode the prohibition of eating them while an onein while the third, which was the Rosh Chodesh offering and hence repeated in the future, didn't, so he burned it. And yet find me where in the Torah it supplies that principle. It doesn't but Moshe and Aharon darshan it out right then and there.
Furthermore, there's "an eye for an eye" which can't be taken literally. Also the Torah says in one verse that we eat matzos for 7 days on Pesach and then a couple of verses later says it's for 6 days. Now even if you hold that, chas v'shalom, the Torah has multiple authors, that's a really bad editing job, no?
Finally, (and this isn't really finally but all I'll put in for now) look at the Ten Commandments. Even at the first giving, the phrase "as I have commanded thee" shows up a few times." Okay, where did He command those particular ones (honouring parents and Shabbos?)
"just because the gedolim accepted a previous godol's assertions does not make them true."
But the fact that they never contradict each other from one level to another needs explaining. I've explained it.
"I just don't understand how ANY godol has the right to make a rabbinic decree that was not explicitly stated in the torah."
Sometimes new safeguards are needed as conditions change.
First of all you have to remember that the Written Torah itself accounts for this in the verse in this week's parshah where matters of controversy are dealt with. We are told the judges have to go up to Yerushalayim to get an answer from the Supreme Court there. Now what matters of controversy could there be? Rashi suggests unclear menstrual stains or unclear signs of tzaraat but there is also the possibility of new legal situations not dealt with in the Oral Law.
Great examples for our day include all the technological advances of the last 150-200 years - electricity, microwaves, computers, etc. None of these could have been dealt with in the Gemara but do need to be dealt with now.
What's very interesting to note, however, is that just as the Written Torah hints at everything in the Oral Laws, so too the Oral Law hints at many modern day situations. To bring two relevant examples: cloning and artificial insemination are mentioned by the Gemara, albeit with a different understanding, but those discussions have acted as the framework for modern decision making in the area.
Another very relevant area is the discussion in the Gemara on the end of the life and how to determine death. How one interprets those pieces and their subsequent commentaries is part of an ongoing process in elucidating how the Torah can be applied to modern life.
A couple of suggestions:
1) Go to jlaw.com and read a few of the essays so see how verses from the Torah or sections of the Gemara can be used to deal with modern problems.
2) Read some stuff by Rav J. David Bleich who does similar things with bioethical issues.
3) In terms of basic halachah, for example kashrus, Shabbos and Niddah, if your Hebrew is good pick up the Sefer HaShitos on these subjects. The book starts with the relevant psukim from the Torah, brings the Gemaras derived from that verse and then follows the chain of commentators until it reaches the final halachah. A great wayto learn how laws developed, especially if you've always had the impression that they're arbitrary "let's see how hard we can make this" decrees.
Are you in the States or Canada?
JP -
"Sometimes new safeguards are needed as conditions change."
So the torah can change or be updated? Why does this only apply to adding more resrictions. perhaps conditions change that make other laws no longer applicable.
Garnel -
I will have a look for the Sefer Hashitos book you mention. that could really be enlightening.
I am not in the US or Canada, I live in Israel. in the coming posts, i plan to write about why I made aliyah and how things are going as a skeptic here in Israel
> So the torah can change or be updated?
Sure, as long as the basic halachic principles are followed.
And it's not always new restrictions. For example, there is a halachah that if you leave water uncovered overnight you can't drink from it. Maybe a venomous animal like a snake took a drink from it and left some venom for you too. Nowadays we don't have snakes around like that so the law no longer applies.
And yes, there are new laws for new situations, eg. electricity. Once you've decided that electricity is a form of fire (by looking at the definition of what makes fire into fire in the first place) you then can work out laws to handle electricity on Shabbos.
Consider computers - you type on the computer screen and words appear. Is this the melachah of koteiv or not? Fascinating stuff but all the "new" rules adhere to the original guidelines.
Bankman--
Was that sarcasm, or did you really mean that we need people to tell us what to think and do?
As to the rest of the discussion, why add to the Torah? Well, cui bono?
Garnel's nice distinction between what one can and cannot add aside, I think it's a given that the rabbis add to the Torah-- or else why would we say "asher kiddishanu b'mitzvotav vitzivanu l'hadlik ner shel Hanukah" when, clearly, God issued no such commandment?
The rabbis add to the Torah, because, without their additions, they would have no authority to make additions, and, hence, no real authority.
Isn't great that the rabbis changed some of the plain meaning of the Torah. They sort of cleaned up a lot of disgusting moral mistakes made by G-d.
For example, G-d in his typical misogynistic way, commands that we chop off the hand of a woman who grabs the testicles of a man to stop a fight even if she did this to protect her husband. Fortunately, the Rabbis have cleaned up G-d's foolish mistake by changing the punishment to a monetary fine in the Talmud.
Here is the Torah verse before the rabbis changed it:
•If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity. [Deuteronomy 25:11-12]
The bronze-age god invented by the ancient hebrews misses the entire moral issue with this little story of testicle grabbing. The larger of the sins is what the males are doing and NOT what the female did to intervene. If two men are so base that they cannot settle their dispute in any other way than fighting, then this is the major problem. The woman stepping in to the situation to stop the brutality and stupidity of their actions is doing the correct thing. She should be PRAISED for anything she does that brings the fight to a quick conclusion before one of the testosterone fueled male brutes gets hurt. The woman should be honored for breaking up the fight. It is the males that should be punished (especially the instigator) and the males should be publicly humiliated to show society that fighting is not an acceptable way to settle disputes. Instead the Torah lets the real transgressors go scot free and punishes the one who is trying to stop the transgression.
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